Takeover Unfiltered

welcome to Talent takeover unfiltered

when it comes to working hard and

keeping it real we know our [ __ ]

self-care happiness inner peace and time

I'm Brianna Rooney and this is Taylor

Bradley hey y'all and we have thrived in

chaos and turn it into an art form so

Taylor what are we doing here today

we're here to give you a raw under the

hood view of all things recruiting and

finally give credit where credit is due

to a long underrated industry that's

full of quote unquote experts all right

well then let's take this show to the

road hello welcome to Talent takeover

unfiltered we have such an amazing

session today because the title is no

more Mrs nice recruiter this is

featuring Carrie jwes and of course the

one and only Taylor Bradley hello

everyone hello hi how you doing Carrie

good getting ready for the holidays that

sort of thing

I love that can you see

the reference here love that so let's

okay I I'm I'm trying to even think how

we start this episode so yeah we're

talking about really I and and I know

we've already done like the power of

recruiting that how do we talk to H

maners we've kind of touched on all this

but this is kind of reiterating it and I

would say more from a how like we don't

want to get run over we have a job to do

and we can't let anyone affect our

ability to do our jobs so correct talk

me through that yeah so CU kind of what

we talked about is you know the the end

point that the conclusion that I came to

at 51 when I was in a room with other

managers who were all men at that time

was I needed to talk like them I needed

to talk like a man and regardless of all

the like de Andi things and all that

about it but like I needed to speak

their language to get my point across CU

my point was valid and my point was

meaningful and it was important for the

business it wasn't about ego it wasn't

about like being right or wrong it was

genuinely what was right for the

business and in this point in this one

time it was like whether or not we

pursue a role like do we shut down this

role which will impact the it had as a

leadership role so it impact it had a

lot of impact and for me to get my

message across I had to do it in a way

that they hurt and for me speaking like

a man means I'm going to say it even

though it contradicts what you just said

and it's in a group and it's not going

to it's might make you look bad but you

know what they do it to each other and

they don't care I cared and so when I

Was preparing for us to talk about this

I would listen to your other podcasts

and kind of really trying to understand

and what really came through Taylor was

when you were talking you had a friend

that was like pushing your boundaries

and having that really upfront talk to

say hey this is my boundary and you had

another Gentleman on his name was

Dominic and I don't remember his last

name and the question you asked him Bri

is how do you'd be confident and he was

like I don't know and it's like the

Dominics of the world they're boring

with it I have my middle kid there's

nothing you can say to him like he just

came out of the gate he's never crushed

um but for people like me like being

able to come to that conclusion that you

have permission to contradict like it

took me a long time and it takes and so

this I'm hoping we will have meaningful

nuggets for people who just don't

naturally have it in their DNA you can

learn it you can be that outspoken

person you can be that confident person

in the room but it's a skill you have to

work at and you may have other skills

that those people don't and that this is

something that I have to work at all the

time like it's not this is so good I

know I was like I'll let you go first

like so I'm I I want to hear like how

did you work I'm so intrigued for people

that are not naturally that way because

I I truly did think like you're either

this way or you're not you either tell

it like it is or you I mean I've just

that's how I've always been and how I've

always who I've surrounded myself with

you kind of are this type of Personality

or you're not so I'm dying to hear like

how did you work on that three years

like it really took a long time I come

from a social work background and

communication's really important but I

really was like this is the thing I was

thinking about is like how do I start

someone who's 22 and new to the room and

can't go into the room and being like

are is the strategy here not make sense

but you know that's the the things you

need to work off as you start or working

oneto one working with your manager and

not taking on a room full of people and

understanding your business so I think

for recruiters understanding space and

being good at your space and knowing

your data um and then understanding your

business and being able to reference it

and taking that conversation Ono one and

get really good at your onetoone

conversations um and you re build it

over time and to me the the the big

moment was when it was when a room with

eight laders like if that room went down

form Labs would no longer exist that the

company to work for like it would be

done um and being able to speak up and

contradict in that space you don't start

off there you start off one to one to be

like okay and we all have those meetings

as recruiters with hiring managers who

want to send you down a crazy path um

and you have to reel them back in and

the thing that I always go back to in my

core is is this a good strategy is this

strategy going to yield the result and I

think about that before I go into a

meeting and before like the here what I

was like what's the right strategy for

us to get the output that we want and so

you get those correct thinking p

patterns it allows you to take the

emotionality out of it which is a lot of

what I have to do cuz I emote first um

and speaking through emotions and ego it

does is not helpful and we've all dealt

with people who aren't managing that um

and you really kind of practice at it

you're going to have good conversations

you're going to have bad conversations

but if you go at it with good faith

you'll get better at it over time to

have these hard discussions to

contradict somebody's belief um because

a lot of times in recruiting it's this

crazy space where it's so data driven

but I feel like a lot of our role is

like anecdotally a manager will be like

well this is what I believe and you're

like well first of all I don't have my

charts with me to show you that maybe it

isn't it's anecdotal right I've talked

to a 100 people they they didn't reflect

what you're saying to me but I don't

have it written down so

experiential but being strategic about

what behavior in you that you want to

gain is it being able to contradict well

being able to speak up and doing that in

a onetoone space and knowing that what

data that you have to have ready at your

fingertips to be able to do that so what

I'm loving from this is permission to

contradict because we've been talking

about look it's a conversation not a

confrontation you know and like you know

um I know we like we got this on postes

right all over no hey it's just a

conversation we're just walking the Ser

but contradicting someone like you don't

even think like wow that's actually that

can be confrontational right and so as

you're in this Mega room how do you do

you wait your turn or do you you know

intersect yourself like it's like you

got to follow the culture of the room

and in our culture it is very like you

know con like interrupt and um but be

professional and you match the room and

one thing I want to share in all of this

this is not dealing with someone who's

toxic like that is a whole different

that's a different conversation when you

have talked that this is dealing with

professionals who are all have the same

goal as you and now working toward Wards

it um and you have to match the culture

of the room a little bit and that's what

we I feel like good recruiters do is we

match the culture of who we're talking

with if I am with a technical person I'm

going to be very different than if I'm

with a creative person um and so you

have to read the room on the culture um

and then understand if the culture isn't

helping us what are the baby steps we

can do to change culture because culture

is not going to change on a light switch

yeah it's way it's way heavier than that

so I I'm just envisioning especially if

this isn't your nature right I'm just

thinking of all the anxiety you're

sweating got you need your extra

deodorant on with but how do you I'm

almost thinking it as like a game like

how do you get yourself pumped to

essentially act like someone you know

internally that's not your nature so how

do you go into that room and be like

here we go I'm going into war right now

how do you get ready for that I think

it's knowing and predicting when it's

going to happen where you can I you know

we do have we're reasonably predictable

we know what these meetings are we know

we can prepare um and being and

practicing and knowing what you need to

practice on is it that they're asking

you to look for a candidate that doesn't

meet their needs come prepared with

here's a couple different profiles so I

think preparation is key um and I think

practice is key and I think that you

knowing that behavior for you that like

you want to be better at these you have

to prepare um to a certain extent to

enter into these conversations so you're

not blindsided cuz what happens is if

you avoid the conflict you're going to

follow what they tell you it's not going

to end well and you own that poor

recruiting

process that's a good point so my my

stepdad um was always like a business

mentor to me he's an entrepreneur and so

I'm just envisioning like going into war

and and I actually I I have a bracelet

that says wwbd what would Blake do so I

feel like that's how like you go in

what's John doing what's Steve doing

today like how would how would he handle

this conversation you know is is this

heavy with does with impostor syndrome

does that ever come creeping in like how

do you say like no thanks this is still

me um you know I I will be honest I see

the impostor syndrome and I never

connected with it in the sense of um

maybe it's it's something that I always

am trying to be better at what I do and

and we always should have a version of

it like I don't I don't know how to

articulate it that like I'm always

looking at myself and maybe I do have it

maybe I don't have it but for me to be

better in this role like this is the the

goal I have to achieve um and so

sometimes we have to be uncomfortable

versions of ourselves to get it whether

it's we have to be harder or we have to

be softer or if we have to be these

things but for most for many women um or

people that being confront of and I

shouldn't say just women being

confrontive is really hard um and this

role to do well in a lot of times you

have to do it I I don't know that's my

experience that like I have to be

confront of and being like this type of

candidate you have is two in the world

what are we going to do and they're like

we're going to wait it okay then I will

just report back you know my stats and

we're going to do it that way and we

have we're on the same page like that

sort of thing hope that's helpful no it

is it's so interesting to hear other

people's experiences CU I think so much

about this going back to what we

originally were talking about or how we

started the conversation it's like so

much of it is who you are I think a lot

of it is how you grew up and how you

were raised if you were one of those

people that was like allowed to speak

your opinion or if it's like you know

children are to be seen not heard you

know that old school mental you know

what I mean and I was always the kid

growing up and I'm Bri will laugh when I

say this but I was like why why why like

I always ask why so anytime we would do

anything at work I'm like why you know

just I have to see to understand but I

you know Carri that into who I am as an

adult as well like I need to understand

what good is this going to accomplish

what purpose is I just strategy it's a

it's a curiosity thing it's not that I'm

like trying to undermine anybody or

criticize them I just am always I I need

to understand it's something that will

like eat away at me if I'm like but why

did we do it like that I just need to

understand but in my experience which I

feel like I maybe have been fortunate to

have where I I felt like I could speak

up but it was over time so that's one

thing a piece of advice that I would

give listeners is that I think you I

think people actually will respect you

more when you speak up but I do feel

there is a time and a place and a like a

a I don't know a probationary period so

to speak like whenever you're you first

join a company in your first 90 days

you're not going to be in a room with

seites and chiming in you know I think

you have to like there has to be some

time where you've built Rapport and

respect and trust with people before

they'll even be receptive of your

opinion or your Insight even if you know

what's best because you're the subject

matter expert in XYZ you know and your

title reflects that your experience

reflects that they know they don't

they're in engineering you know it's

just two different two different apples

right or apples and oranges but I do

think that you have to with any job you

have to have established a certain

amount of Rapport and respect before

your voice can even be heard corre and I

always wonder does that apply to men as

well or that's what I was just going to

push you I'm like maybe not because I

will tell you I don't think it does cuz

how many new managers come into me and

they're typically male to be like I have

ideas and because I have long tenure

where I'm at and I feel like I'm an

experienced person I'm like that is

terrific let me tell you what we're

going to do and then you can tell me how

that matches and I'm way more forceful

now s years in than I was year one like

I don't even entertain it like I'm just

like no we're just I've been doing this

role we we know um I couldn't not get

away with that day you know year one

month one just know and you you have to

build that all the time but should I go

to a new role in sometime in the future

I'm happy we I'm at but should I go to a

new one I think I could get to that

Rapport building way faster than I could

before and I think experiential and

that's why I think it's something if

it's you have to know if confrontation

is hard for you you don't get to you

shouldn't be avoiding confrontations you

should be building the skills so that

you can have them because addressing it

and that's what this is is like for me

it took me to 51 to be like oh I just

got to talk like them because they don't

care they don't care I'm actually going

to challenge what you said though and

say it's not avoiding confrontation it's

avoiding a conversation it's because

just yeah just approaching with your

opinion or asking why it's not

confrontational you're seeking to

understand or you're offering your

Insight but I think the way you said it

is what most people believe is that

anytime you say something or challenge

it's a confrontation when it's it's not

and Taylor here's where I will will

counter you in a nice way is that you

you don't feel it confrontive for me 20

years ago it it would have felt totally

confrontive to just really it comes from

that that the DNA thing like it's just

way as I like in my perfect little

bubble if I was like a step out of

college I would be like I wanted to be a

social worker and help people guess what

the first thing you learned in social

work school you're setting boundaries

you're telling people to convincing them

things they want to do the last thing

you need to be is nice you want to be

supportive and emotive and empathetic

but you're not going to be what's

classified as nice which is compliant to

other you know can be defined as

compliant to other people so getting to

the point of understanding it is a

conversation was actually one of the

steps in the journey for me to be good

at having hard conversations is to

understand it was a conversation and not

a confrontation but it felt like

confrontation to me but I had to take

that emotionality down and the way and

get it to the strategy strategic

business need and it's that that is a

mental switch in me and taking that

emotionality out so how do you even know

that's you just being emotional you know

because like I I look at it as um when

we're talking about nice well everyone

wants to be a nice person y you know so

it's like okay that just it's same like

with selfish no that's self-care you

know I feel like we're constantly trying

to reframe how we um see and feel words

so how do you even start that process

that's a the heavy one I

think me

yeah you're the star of our show um you

know I think it's one of those things is

where you know you learn over time it's

like you know is it hitting my ego do I

want to be light why is the my feelings

hurt like why am I feeling something

less than positive right and then I'm

like they did they they're just giving

me information they they're not sneaking

to who I am as a human they're it's it's

a business transaction that is you who

is receiving it so I think really

getting good at gauging what's your

internal what's going on and where it's

coming from um is critically important

it helps you in your your work but it

will help you in your private life too

to be like he just stepped on a nerve

but that nerve is actually you know

installed by my mom you know like yeah

you got to kind of like weed through

that and that's why I think for some

people it's a really long process to get

to these these uh to the to be able to

have hard conversations but hopefully

you know hijacking the process a little

bit and sharing here to be like hey you

know you can have these hard

conversations you can talk like the

other people that you see around them

and you can join that culture um and

speak that way so I have a question so

you know it's it's often said and in

some of my experience I found it to be

true that if you're a woman you speak up

or your director blunt you're a [ __ ] so

I'm just going to call a SP to Spade so

ever since you've on this journey and

where you've got to the point that you

are now where you you speak up and

you'll have those conversations do you

feel like the perception of you has

changed and shifted is it that you know

Carrie's a [ __ ] or is it like oh wow we

really see Carrie speaking up like

because you've built all this Rapport

and credibility yeah one I think

society's move forward a little bit so

let's give credit like we're like a

little bit um but it's I'm a challenger

right and it's I you can call me that

but I will challenge you and and say why

and make me understand the strategy and

I will push forward and you know what

I'm not here to be light I'm here to do

a good job and I'm here for the business

and that is I genuinely like what I do

which is putting people in jobs that

they're happy at like that's what I

that's what I that's what I care about

so I think if you're able to withstand

that you know people not liking and

loving you um if you're love language is

being told how wonderful you are than

like you know working with technical

World technical people that's not the

one like they're they they appreciate

what you do you did your job yay but

they're they're not going to moot over

you um and uh that's not the drive that

I need my drive is I really love the

technology and I really love getting

people I think it's so important to get

people happy in the roles because it's

they spend more time with their family

there than with their families and if

they can go home with a happy heart of

how they spent their day it's so much

more impactful and so I truly believe

I'm doing social work if I can get

someone happy in their role and it it

works for them and the business that's

what I care about I don't care what

people call me a [ __ ] go ahead she so

crazy that we can't be at all you know

that we can't be liked and direct that

we can't be liked and have the best

interest of the business and just

challenge opinions or thoughts or

perspective in the what's in looking out

for the best interest of the business I

think yes I agree there's been some

progress some slight progress but with

regards to women just being [ __ ] for

being correct but when you said it

you're like I'm a challenger and I'm

like I wouldn't even call it that you

know you're just offering insight you're

trying to help understand so that you

can accomplish what's best for the

business but the fact that it's like it

would be even labeled as a challenger

because you're offering your perspective

or maybe your perspective might

contradict with someone else it doesn't

mean you're challenging it you're just

offering a different perspective you

know so I still think it it could be

framed up negatively even though it's

not meant to be it could when you're a

woman it's just a little bit different

of how those approaches are perceived by

people yeah and yeah I 100% agree and

then that's also why it's difficult for

people to get on this journey to learn

what they need to do to have discussions

because of that but the benefit of being

able to do it is to me far greater than

the perception the few who might be you

know well she's challenging to work with

yeah yeah so do you find that um

throughout this journey that you've gone

through you know do you find that you're

able to or it it changed the way that

you respond to

feedback

um yes I mean I feel like any person but

I don't I think it's more holistic than

that than versus uh me being able to I

say personal feedback when I hear

feedback I mean personally how I'm doing

things yes it does you have to leave

yourself open if you're going to go out

there and give challenging info you're

going to get it back yeah um but I want

to be better I'm not here to be the same

as it was yesterday if you're going to

take me away from my kids then like I

got to be doing better cuz I don't want

to I'm not done with my career at 51 I

still have a long time left like I

expect to grow and if I'm not growing

like what's the point like let me be

with my kids and I'll figure it out I'll

get a like smaller lifestyle and you

know being mom like if you're taking me

away from my kids I have to be in a a

trajectory that's positive for me yeah I

love it I feel like this is all kind of

encompassing well a couple things one

Taylor I'm surprised you didn't say

feelings are not facts so that's

something that she brought she brought

to me a couple years ago and like I

actually just told myself that last

night because I was like kind of going

down this bad journey and uh I'm like

nope my feeling is not a fact facts are

not feelings you know it goes both ways

and so I definitely think that that um

you know I'm thinking of it now but also

I think what I'm hearing is you go back

to your mission and your mission is I am

a badass at my job M and here's my

mission I I bring amazing careers to

people you know like like you said like

they could they could be anywhere right

you could stay at home but you choose to

go to work and you choose to do that but

you know um talk about the proess

progression of being a [ __ ] is my

really like best friend director of

marketing has been in this you know in

her journey for a long time and she

always would get on the special projects

the things that really push the needle

at the company right like and she got

all this recognition for it yet at the

end of the year I got a review and she's

like yeah and they actually said this to

her for btim we love the work you do can

you be less of a [ __ ] about it and I

was like they did not call you a [ __ ]

he's like swear to God and I was like oh

my God so I'm just thinking of so many

things car W Taylor while you're talking

I'm just like God we're have we made

progress maybe like I I don't know maybe

uh maybe some people have you know um so

I I love to see and love to hear that

you've made progress because like you

said it is a journey it's a con journey

and it's it's one it's a road that you

have to take especially where we're not

the tailor of the world where it comes

naturally a little bit more you know

naturally [ __ ] yeah to just naturally

step on that and to be like and if

you're someone who's listening and and

is you know shies away from that like

that's the cute for you to like get on

that path the benefit far aways being

called a [ __ ] I don't care like the

benefit outweighs it like my skills have

grown because I can do this my ability

to go in and and call like get us to a

strategy that will have an outcome is

why you know I am worth what I believe

I'm worth so me sitting there and

worrying about what you think no me

being able to better communicate what

we're working on and what we're working

towards is what you the business wants

out of me and hopefully while you were

hired yeah and while you be hired again

yeah Taylor I think it's about that time

I no I love that there was about a

million things that you said that I was

like that could be a broke to boss tip

that's a good one that's a good one I

mean it just flows so organically with

you Carri but um give them your official

broke to boss

tip I think if it's scary do it like get

out there do the prep Do It um learn

what you need to learn and don't be

don't be afraid that if it takes you

longer to learn it like give yourself

the space to keep trying and keep trying

and keep trying no one gets this

whatever you're working on in a minute

um and you just got to keep going at it

just keep trying love that y I love it

love it it goes back to if you haven't

listened to our episode of getting 1%

better every day please listen to that

it's great and it's going to Encompass

all of this so um everyone thank you so

much for listening if you have enjoyed

this podcast please share it with all of

your ta and recruiting friends and

Carrie thanks again so much Taylor as

always awesome time all right thanks

y'all thank you bye