Takeover Unfiltered

So you need something to grab someone's attention right when you first send an email, a LinkedIn message, or even do a LinkedIn post. Your first goal is to get people to stop what they're doing and actually read. So the first thing you put should be about attention grabbing and then it's interest. So why is this interesting to me? And then define your ask and then have a call to action at the end. So I always structure everything I do in that way, even blog posts and LinkedIn posts. It's a writing style job, particularly for job ads. Are you ready for the raw, unapologetic reality as you reclaim your life? Me too. So turn into the Takeover Unfiltered podcast hosted by, yep, yours truly, Brianna Rooney, millionaire recruiter, and Taylor Bradley, the humble hustler. We're pulling back the curtain on our personal lives and sharing the ups, downs, and the in-between. From navigating relationships to juggling self-care routines, we are laying it all out on the table. You're welcome. We're all about taking control and making [ __ ] happen, so expect raw, candid talk seasoned with some, of course, uncensored language. It's time to own your journey, embrace the chaos, and unleash your inner badass. So buckle up because we're about to take you on a wild ride to self-discovery and empowerment. But don't worry, we're still dishing on some valuable insights into the recruiting world. It's all about finding that balance between work and play, and we're here to show you how it's [ __ ] done. You ready to kick some ass and rewrite the rule book? Grab your favorite drink, cozy up, and join us for some real talk. You are not going to want to miss it.

Hello, hello! Welcome to Takeover Unfiltered. We have a great guest today and, of course, we always have the lovely, fabulous Taylor Bradley. Good morning.

Hi, good morning. Good to see you guys.

Good. And then we have Darren Westall from Pager, which if you guys haven't heard me talking about, this is my new favorite shiny tool. Darren's here today to talk about AI and business development. I know everyone's like, I mean, everyone's using AI for anything they absolutely can, but I think biz dev is the one that it's like everybody is doing that right now. In recruiting, I think in any industry really, but in recruiting in particular, it's like who has this magic sauce, right? And so I think we're all trying to turn to someone because we can't find it, and so that someone feels like AI. So, Darren, welcome to the show.

Thank you very much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Alright, so let's dig in because I mean, I know you, you've used a lot of AI. Why don't you just give a quick background of your story and why you're sitting here today?

Yeah, cool. So, I'm a techie through and through. I love technology. I started my career as a software developer. I was at a company called Broadbean for 10 years, a rec tech business. Ironically, I failed at college. I'm not entirely sure how I managed to get through the interview process, but I did somehow. But I worked there for 10 years and became their Chief Technology Officer across EMEA, so over product and technical teams. Got my dream job by the age of 28, you know, I had the salary I wanted, but inside I was, I was dead. I was slightly miserable. So I actually pretty much the same day I got the job, I decided to quit my job, which was a bit of a shock to my family, my wife, etc. because I said I was going to start my business that I wanted to for so many years, and that business was Pager. So Pager's six years old now, and we now work with just over 800 staffing companies, and I have around 7,000 recruiters using the platform every single day. And yeah, cut a long story short, my wife's finally forgiven me for quitting my job. That's where I'm at in my life.

Yeah, it was a very selfish decision, but one that fortunately was the right one.

Okay, so God, this episode is so not about this right now, but you know I can't let you get away with this. This can be like its whole episode, but I want to just bring we whenever we choose to do things for ourselves we call it selfish, which in return sounds negative. But we're trying to change that kind of point of view to, you know, self-love, self-care. But it's like how can we ever really get there?

Like, are we allowed to swear on these podcasts? I should have asked.

ABS. It's unfiltered, just let it rip.

Yeah, oh yeah. The reason I actually quit my job was a video from Gary Vayner, who I'm sure we all familiar with. But yeah, the video was "Whose [ __ ] permission are you looking for?" That was literally the title of the video. And he started by saying, is it your mom, is it your dad, is it your wife, is it your children? Who is it? Like, whose permission are you waiting for to do what you want to do? And it was at that moment I sat there and said, nobody's. I'm waiting for my own and I'm going to do this. And you know, everyone around me loves and cares for me, right? I know that. And it's important to remember that the advice they're giving you doesn't mean they don't want you to do well. They just think that's the right thing for you. But only you know what's right for you. So yeah, if you are sitting here thinking whose effing permission are you waiting for, please just do it because you'll be so much happier.

So true. I got the chills and this is not even what this podcast is about. See Darren, we should have been talking about this.

Yeah.

Well, and I also think we should take a moment to congratulate six years in business. I mean, that's, that's not easy to do. So hats off to you. And like you said, I'm sure your wife is very pleased at this point.

Yeah, she now works in the business. So she now, you know, we're both working towards this more so, which is incredible because you know, to go, yeah, it's a, it's not a family business, don't get me wrong, there's 40 of us in the business, right? But we're working towards the same goals, which is the best place to be in life.

Absolutely. Yeah. To note, she's still your wife.

So she's still my wife, yes. Yes.

Also, those headphones, by the way. I know we're going off topic, but those headphones are awesome.

I know, thank you.

Yep, they're incredible.

Yeah, so she's still, she's still my wife. But I would say we're a lot, a lot more aligned in everything we do, which is a key to a happy marriage, I'm told. So there you go.

Gosh, yeah, that is awesome. Okay, I'm going to start. We're going to get back on topic, but I don't want to, just so you know. So AI in business development, walk us through that. How do you use it? What do you think about it? What's going on there?

Yeah, and obviously we're an AI company, so for me to say this might seem a bit odd, but my view on AI and business development is to use it to make you more efficient, but don't replace you, right? We've got to remember that we are recruiters. We're in a human industry, and when you try to remove the human part of that, that's when you're actually going to be not a very good recruiter. So for me, I'd look across your business and go, right, how can I be more efficient? And then can AI help me? And with business development, it can. It can help you summarize a company, for example, summarize someone's LinkedIn activity. You can get summaries, but it shouldn't remove the human aspect, and that's you. So there's lots of people talking about, is AI going to replace recruiters, right? And my answer is always the same. It will replace the bad ones, right? It really will remove the bad ones. But the good recruiters, the ones that, you know, we say, is the juice worth the squeeze? And it always is, right? It always is worth the squeeze. If someone's going to pay you 20, 30k as a placement or 10k, right, you need to put the effort in. So let's stop trying to find shortcuts and just decide how can I be more efficient using AI, but still keep that human element. You know, the phone for me is king. Meeting people, if you can get on a plane, go and see people, is king. But there's certainly things AI can use to speed up that process for you, and that's where I'd be concentrating on. Don't look for an end-to-end solution because it will just do more harm than good.

So I think the trend is, and I don't know if people are coming to you for your platform to, I guess, fix this, right? There's a lot of lazy recruiters out there, right? So going to your point of let's just have this do something for me. And this is, by the way, this isn't all industries. It's just, we just happen to see it in recruiting a lot. But people will come to my program or coaching or whatever, and they're like, great, set up my sequences, get a few different emails, blast the stuff out, and let's get this done. And I'm like, this is not what this is for, by the way. How long have you been in recruiting? Oh, I haven't. So it's like, let me get this straight. You want me to think for you, write for you, set up your automations for you, and then I'm just going to assume you're going to do your job really well. I can't, I can't do that.

No, no. And that's interesting. People come to you, they've never done recruitment before, started a recruitment business?

A lot, yes, yes.

So I think the overall trend, and Taylor, I know we've got some good stories on this one. The trend, I think, is like, let's be an entrepreneur. We're tired of being laid off. We're going to go for it. And then there's also on the other side where people have been hiring managers and they're like, oh, I've been really involved in this process. I totally get it. This seems like really easy. It seems like all the recruiters that recruit me make more money. So why would I not want to go do something super easy and then go work for myself? Like people are trying to start this business on the side, which is impossible.

People need to remember a good staffing recruiter is more than four different roles I can name off the top of my head. You need to be a good marketer. You need to be good at sales. You need to be customer success and sourcing candidates. And that's just the four off the top of my head, right? So unless you've got a really varied skill set and also the passion for all of those things, because you need to put the time and effort in. This isn't going to just be something you turn on overnight. It's not simple as finding a good candidate. You actually need a job to fill as well. And why would that candidate trust you over the other 40,000 recruiters they could trust? So marketing comes into it. BD comes into it. Sourcing candidates comes into it. And if you've never done that before, my biggest piece of advice was go and do it. You know, I wouldn't have started a business having not worked in the business and not worked in recruitment technology before. You go and earn your stripes, right? You need to do that. You need to feel that pain before you try and do it. And you especially can't try to automate something you don't understand or you're not trying to do yourself yet. So when it comes to AI, just bringing us back on topic a little bit, you need to not get shiny toy syndrome, right? And lots of people do that. They see the latest AI tool and they think, I need that, right? I'd much rather you look at yourself, look at your business and think, these are the problems I'm trying to solve. This is my shopping list. I always say to people, you don't go to Walmart unless you're hungry or you've got a shopping list, right? You wouldn't just walk around Walmart aimlessly buying stuff. So don't do that with technology either. You need to be hungry or you have a list of things you know you want. So ideally on that list is going to be things like, I need to find job leads. I need to find people that are hiring right now. How am I going to automate that process? I need to find candidates that match this criteria. How am I going to automate that part? I know I need to write email sequencing, so I need to automate that part of that. And then how do I join the dots? So I always say, write your shopping list first. But yeah, if you haven't done recruitment before, it's a hard industry. If everyone thinks it's easy, please give it a try, but it's not.

It's not. It's really not.

Preaching to the choir, Darren. You're preaching to the choir. We always talk about that, you know, the recruiting industry getting the respect that it deserves. But I love that you said, and that goes with any business, how can you start a business if you haven't done it before? How would you even know which parts to automate and to use AI for?

Yeah. It's a bit like, you know, when I started the business, I'd never done sales before, right? So I was a techie. I literally sat with not quite a sparkly headphones on, but big headphones on in the office, trying to avoid eye contact with people because I didn't want to talk to people. That was me for a good number of years. And then when I decided to start the business, I quickly realized that no, I can't be that person anymore, right? I need to actually engage with people. And sales was not in my skill set. So the first thing I did was go, right, who's going to be my employee number one co-founder, if you like, who actually has sales that I can learn from? So if you don't have that in the business, if you're starting a recruitment business and you don't have that experience, perhaps the answer is start the business, but find a good co-founder that can help you along the way. It's much easier when you've got someone to bounce off anyway. So yeah, one of the best things I did was find a co-founder in sales who I could learn from, but we didn't hit target because, you know, I didn't know what I was doing anyway. But I'd like to think I've learned sales now and every skill is learnable, right? You can get books, you can learn it over time. But if you're starting a business, often you don't have time, right? You've got limited funds and you've got a runway you need to get to. So yeah, maybe a co-founder is a good answer.

So you mentioned earlier on in the call, I think you said you have 7,000 recruiters using the platform, is that correct?

Yeah, every single day.

Oh wow, that's awesome. Is there any specific part that you find that most recruiters use it for? Is it, like you mentioned, lead generation or outreach? Is there any specific part that you're seeing like the majority of the recruiters that are on the platform or the tool are using it for?

Yeah, the big thing for us is personal branding, right? So I believe in the power of LinkedIn. So you can tell your assistant, if you like, what you want to be known for. So we don't work with generalist recruiters. You need to be in a niche. You need to know who it is you want to talk to, who's the person you're trying to reach on LinkedIn. And then for me, the number one reason people don't post to LinkedIn every day is writer's block. They know what they want to talk about, they don't quite know how to say it. And so we try a first draft of a LinkedIn post for them every single day that's on topic for the right persona and then they can share it out. So personal brand is a big one. And on the flip side to that, we've also got a feature called find vacancies that searches thousands, and I do mean thousands and thousands of job boards, aggregation sites, career sites, ATS platforms, LinkedIn. We remove roles from other staffing agencies using AI, and then we just show you roles from direct employers. So these people are hiring in your space right now. Build your brand on LinkedIn, build up the trust, and let's try and make you more efficient while you do that.

Pretty cool.

Yeah, to say the least. I was like, I'm going to my like, shoot, I actually I need to like log in today. I didn't do something today. But wondering, where would you suggest focusing really on the business development part? Where would you suggest AI plays the best part? I know you were talking about the grocery list, but let's like dig in a little bit more because I think there's even some people that are listening that haven't even really used AI to its full potential. So it's like, what really is its full potential, you know?

Yeah, I mean, let's think about AI as we know it. Normally people are talking about your chat GPT, your Clause of this world right now. So AI for me has got a long way to go. We're at the beginning of this journey. We're about seven years in, but really it's come to the forefront in the last year or so. And what we've got right now is generative AI, so the ability to produce text, right? That's really what we've got right now. We're starting to see images and videos come, but we're not at AGI. We're nowhere near that quite yet, despite what all the different companies that are trying to raise money want to tell you, right? So we've got generative AI, so we can generate text. So when you're thinking about what can I automate, think about what text do you like? Is it blog posts? Is it white papers? Is it salary surveys? Is it LinkedIn posts? Is it job adverts? Is it sales emails, right? That's where AI is going to be really powerful right now. So I think sales emails can be a big one. If you know which framework you're following, I would look and say, right, follow this framework. Is it the AIDA framework, which I love? Attention, interest, and call to action at the end. So I would always tell the AI to follow a framework, the one you're interested in, for your sales emails. But it can condense a lot of data into one thing, right? So if you've got a good data source, you can then produce really good emails that you can then send at the right time. But remember, your goal of your emails is to create conversation. Your goal of your email is to get on the phone, have a Zoom call, whatever it may be. So for me, AI is about taking big data, create text, and then using that text to bring human-to-human conversations into play.

Just for my own curiosity, was your wife big into AI as well? Or as she joined the company, did she kind of start adopting some of the AI in general, I guess?

Well, my wife worked in legal, so no. But now she's now, what I'd say, she's now our best customer success person in my eyes, right? And she's always going to be the best at everything she does. But she cares as much as I do.

Yeah, that's awesome. That's really hard as a business owner. And I know, again, this is not what this story is about, but it's hard to find someone that cares about your business as much as you do, you know, because it is your child, right? And so it's like to bring employees in like that is like the best thing ever. And you can build something like that, but it takes time. So naturally, when it's with your wife, one mission, one goal, one purpose. I love that.

It makes everything easier, right? You know, we've not hidden it. We're trying to get into the US market right now, right? That involves me working evenings. And it's so much easier when she knows why I'm doing this. She's well aware of why I'm doing it.

So, yeah, it's good. And this is a big market. I would love to actually, that's a whole other conversation, to kind of talk about the differences. Maybe we'll have you back on because it is different on how do you get into different markets. Because from my point of view, and again, I don't know as much, I would say like the UK area has a lot more respect for recruiters than the United States does. Do you feel the same?

There's also, I would, I just think it's more of an acceptance that you need to use recruiters. We've got far less internal TA teams in the UK. Most businesses in the US I've found have got internal TA. And they always want to try and fill the roles themselves, right? Well, that's what they're there for. But in the UK, most businesses would not have that team. Big enterprise businesses would, but far less. So there's definitely more of a need, if that makes sense, in the UK. But we've got a really different model. So most of the UK recruiters are 360. They do everything in the role. What I'm finding is in the US, everybody's 180, sort of split desk, BD, account management, resourcing, etc., which for me is the right way, by the way. Because I don't think it's, it's really hard to find somebody that's good at every skill set I mentioned, right? Customer success, souring candidates, sales, marketing. It's really hard. So I do see that the UK will follow that model in the future. But we're not there just yet. Everybody thinks they can do everything, which is why we have such a high turnover of staff in the industry, which is really upsetting because I think it's a great industry. But unfortunately, we do burn through people, which is a shame.

Yeah. Well, because it goes to your point, it's hard. It's hard. It's actually hard. It's very, very hard.

Yeah. And then people get blindsided. They get promised the world, right? We're going to make this much money in the first year. And the reality is, you will if you're good. But if you're not good, you won't. So yeah, that's the only thing. If I could change it in the UK, I'd love to see that split desk model more. I'd like to see people hired for the skill sets they're really good at, rather than people being okay at a bit of everything. I think that's where we sort of go wrong a little bit.

Sorry, I don't want to miss this one. Your framework. I don't think a lot of people know a lot about what the framework you're talking about. Can you like dig into that a little bit more?

Oh yeah, I've written that down.

Oh yeah. Yes. So I can't remember exactly, but it's attention at the start and then interest. And then I'll be able to find out for you, but I'll put it in the comments. And then it's a call to action at the end. So you need something to grab someone's attention right when you first send an email, a LinkedIn message, or even do a LinkedIn post. Your first goal is to get people to stop what they're doing and actually read. So the first thing you put should be about attention grabbing, and then it's interest. So why is this interesting to me? And then define your ask, and then have a call to action at the end. So I always structure everything I do in that way, even blog posts and LinkedIn posts. It's a way, it's a writing style job adverts in particular. So if you can think about what's going to grab their attention, because on LinkedIn it only shows the first sentence, right? You have to click see more to read the whole post. So it's the same as an email subject line. You need to get people to click see more. You need to get people to read your email. And every time someone clicks see more, LinkedIn actually tracks that in the background. That's going back to LinkedIn servers. Somebody's clicked see more, and then they show it to more people. So your first goal of a LinkedIn post or an email is to get people to open it. So we've got to write it in that style as well. And then you've got to carry on with their interest. There's something called dwell time. How long do people spend on your post? So you need to increase the dwell time on your post. That's where you need to keep their interest. And then you've got to have the call to action. What did you want to get out of this? Was it the fact that they're going to leave a comment with their thoughts? Is your goal of this post brand awareness? If so, commenting is great because that will show it to more people. Is it that you want them to apply for a job? Well, that's call to action. Is it that you want them to sign up to your playbook? Whatever it may be. So attention, interest, call to action. Always follow that and you should be in a good place.

I like that.

Yeah. So the question that I was going to ask you earlier, I already forgot that one. But I did have a question for you. So with AI and that we've kind of seen this become a big thing really just the last few years. So you said you've been in business six years, but it's really, or I guess for me, I've only really heard about AI within these last few years, specifically as your point earlier started with chat GPT. So just curious to know, you've been in business six years. Have you seen, has your business doubled or tripled or increased? What's been your biggest year in business with the adoption of AI kind of, you know, with everybody, with this becoming a mainstream thing?

Yeah, I mean, go back to 2020, when COVID hit, it was three people in the business working in my shed in my garden by then. It was a nice shed, but it was still a shed, right? And they weren't chained in there. They weren't, it was okay. They could leave as long as it was after 5pm. The big revolution, if you like, for Pager was actually COVID. So at least in the UK before COVID, everybody was making phone calls very easily. People picked up the phone. When COVID hit, everybody went to work from home model and suddenly you can't call people. So how are you going to reach people? And the answer to that is LinkedIn, personal branding, marketing. So marketing really got taken seriously around 2020. And ultimately we started marketing and the BD bit came, came later. So we saw growth through COVID because people actually needed to do marketing for the first time. Previous to that, it was a nice to have. Only the really forward-thinking companies were doing it, but overnight pretty much, you know, our demand tripled. So the first week of COVID, I thought, oh my God, what have I done? I need to get a job. And then the second week, I was like, oh, this is awesome. This is great. So yeah, that's the roller coaster of running a business, right? But in terms of AI, that definitely has come in the last, I want to say, year and a half because it's become mainstream now with the AI name, right? So we're always going to be an AI tool. For people watching this, if you remember old school pagers or beepers, that's why we call it Pager. We're modernizing it. So we're sending notifications. So we always knew there'd be an AI element to what we do. But did I expect it to happen this quickly and this advanced so quickly? No, right? We got lucky in that sense. Although everyone keeps reminding me, you make your own luck. So we'll see.

Your eyes have to be open to your own luck though, you know?

Yeah. When we started, we wanted to build our own models, right? And we really are still trying to, but what OpenAI and ChatGPT did was they gave you the ability to create models overnight. You know, we could fine tune models on their cloud servers. Before, we had to have expensive GPUs. And as a startup business, that's expensive, right? They're about 40k each. So there's only so many of those you can buy before you break the bank. So OpenAI made it possible. Yeah. So I think the possibilities are endless with what it's going to be. Yeah. So I'm very grateful to them for doing that.

Have you seen, what I'm waiting for, and I've only seen this in beta, so I don't know if it's on your radar, is the AI with video, with business development.

What is it?

Have you seen Sora? S-O-R-A?

No.

So this is the tool from OpenAI. This is the reason I think, and obviously this is just an opinion, this is why Hollywood's got the hump right now. So they can generate entire scenes. And there's other companies that can put the words in and music over the top. So we're talking full HD actual scenes right now that they can produce just from a prompt. And it's in beta right now. People can't get general access, but it's insane. If you look at the videos it produces, it's very easy to see why the creative industry is worried, right? And if you think about how you're going to use that for BD, you could literally find somebody that's posted on LinkedIn. I'm thinking off the top of my head, but maybe they said, I'm at home with the kids today. Working from home is really hard when you're trying to do X, Y, Z, whatever it is. You could produce a whole scene of them working from home with the kids. And then you could be there saying, I've got this solution that can help you, right? Go crazy with it. But that's where we're going now. The creative industries, ironically, I thought, I think everybody thought they'd be the last to go, right? Because it's the hardest thing to do. But actually it's the creative industries that are going to be affected first. And it's going to be the real creatives that stand out.

Ah, God, that's giving me the chills in so many different ways. So I use a lot of video. I think video in business development, I mean, even candidates, right? But I would say if I'm going to spend time on videos, it can be biz dev, right? I think that's like the best. I use Loom. It gives you the scripts. You can book through Calendly. I mean, there's just so many things. But what I'm looking for is like how it dubs over your mouth and stuff. How it's like, I could send it to Taylor and Darren. I could send the same video with that. And I know that we're starting to see it. I haven't seen it to where my liking is. This looks really good. And then how do I then put it into sequences? You know, like I want it to all come together.

TAVUS. T-A-V-U-S. And they've just got, I think it's $25 million from Y Combinator. They're just going through YC and they're doing exactly that. So you record yourself for like a two minute video and then it can automatically make the rest of the videos out there. So that's the closest I've seen where I go, I would send that. Most of the time I look and go, that's not quite right. But you got to remember, this is only a year old, right? If you think of when the first iPhone, you couldn't do anything, Blackberry laughed at the first iPhone, right? So this is as bad as it's going to get. And I think that's the most important thing to remember. What you're seeing right now is the worst it's going to be. And it's still bloody awesome, right? So fast forward two years, it's going to be absolutely amazing as long as you embrace it. If you're scared by it and you don't embrace it, you don't adopt it, then yeah, I'll worry for you.

100%. Well, we are, I was going to say, we're at time, but I know you like to do your last minute.

Yeah.

So do you want to get me last minute thought?

Okay, then yes, I have one last question.

Okay. This is just such a big subject. I mean, AI in general is something we talked about for a long time, but business development, something that every single person needs in every single industry. So Darren, I'll hit you with a big question here. If you had to pick just one form of AI for business development, what would that be?

We were just talking about it. It's a hard one because I know the biggest thing I believe in when it comes to business development is it needs to be multi-channel. So you need to have multiple channels hitting people. So I would obviously include personal branding. You must do that and you can become more efficient on that. Then I would think about the videos and the outreach you do, the emails. But for me, it's a bit of a non-answer you want because you have to be multi-channel to do good BD. So I'd be talking about personal branding, emails, and then I would never, ever automate the phone or your meetings.

How is everyone doing their minutes? How do they output their minutes?

What do you mean?

Well, you could actually create your own AI and have it answer for you. So you could actually train.

Oh yes, I've seen the chat bots are out there now where people go to your website, they can have a conversation and they sign up.

I don't want that. I want somebody to talk to a human being, especially in recruitment.

Yeah, I mean it's coming where you could have a conversation with somebody. They could think it's you. That is more possible.

That is terrifying. And actually on the other side, I called a candidate last week and it had something like that you're talking about. And I'm like, ew. And it made me honestly think like I had the wrong number or this candidate's not real because that's the issue too with a lot of like LinkedIn profiles. There's so much fake stuff out there right now that it really caused me to pause and be like, should I even call this person? So I can't imagine from a candidate's perspective of a recruiter doing that because I didn't like it at all.

No, and you got to remember you're dealing with people and that's what makes us great. So let's not try to change that, the human to human.

Yeah. Will you go ahead Darren to hit our listeners with your broke to boss tip?

Well, so many. As in my biggest tip on AI for business development, is that or just anything?

Yep.

Okay. My biggest tip is go out and form your shopping list. Don't do it just because it's shiny. But once you've got it, do it quickly, do it fast, embrace it because it will change your business. It will make you more efficient and effectively make you more money. So yeah, do it, but do it with the right thought behind it.

Love that. Love it. Learn it first.

Learn it first.

Okay. Can't help myself. Darren, thank you so much. We'll definitely link Pager in. It's a tool that I've used for the last like two months, which is why I absolutely had to have you come on because I remember even in our demo, I'm like, what? If the demo is this good? So Kate, who is, you know, in charge of our branding and marketing, I like couldn't even speak to her. I was like, you have to get on this right now. Like, and she'll attest to that. She's like, you weren't even formulating sentences correctly. So yeah, I'm a mega fan. But thanks so much. Everyone, thank you for listening. Remember, we love those reviews. It helps us get up in the morning, right Taylor?

Exactly. We appreciate the listens, the follows, the comments, the messages, all of that. So keep them coming.

Love it. See you next Tuesday.

Thanks y'all.